Gregor Gysi: An Optimist by Necessity

Gregor Gysi is Germany’s three-in-one politician, comedian, and charismatic speaker. He has been a prominent figure in German politics since the Eighties, when he worked as a lawyer in the German Democratic Republic (GDR) and became involved in the oppositional civil rights movement. After reunification, he played a central role in reinventing the former GDR’s Sozialistische Einheitspartei Deutschland (SED) as the new Partei des Demokratischen Sozialismus (PDS) and is now a key member of its third incarnation, Die Linke. But Gysi’s appeal extends far beyond his own party members. With his rhetorical brilliance and sharp humour, he strikes a chord with people across the political spectrum – even those who do not support his party’s politics. In this candid conversation with Amelie Kahl, Gregor Gysi reflects on the challenges and opportunities for democracy, his vision for a better Germany, and the courage it takes to drive change.

AMELIE KAHL Mr. Gysi, is your glass half full?

GREGOR GYSI Generally speaking, yes. I’m an optimist by necessity – otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to run election campaigns. If I were to assume we were going to lose anyway, I’d lose all motivation. So, yes, in that sense, I’ve always been an optimist.

AK Do you feel the same sense of optimism regarding Germany’s future?

GG Not at all. We’re witnessing a rightward shift in the US and across Europe. Look at figures like Meloni, Orbán, and Erdoğan. In Austria, Mr. Kickl could become chancellor, with their mainstream conservative party as a junior partner. Belgium is heading in a similar direction. Then there’s Ms. Le Pen in France and the Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) here in Germany – I find all of these developments truly worrying. And now Trump is talking about using military force to seize the Panama Canal and Greenland. It’s a complete disaster. To put it bluntly: things aren’t looking good. And that’s coming from an optimist.

AK What can we do in the face of these developments?

GG The most urgent task is for all democratic forces to unite and defend the core values of freedom and democracy. We can argue about everything else, but on this, we must stand together. This alliance must go beyond political parties – it should include artists, writers, scientists, trade unions, churches, and business associations. We need a broad coalition that resolutely defends the core principles of freedom and democracy. This is something we need across Europe – and in the US as well.

AK I hope that as the world shifts further to the right, the left will push back even harder.

GG This is how I see the situation: if Die Linke isn’t in the Bundestag, there will be no left-wing voices in parliament. And if they’re not in parliament, they won’t be in the media. And if they’re not in the media, they won’t be in society. Then the only debate will be between the centre and the far right. I think even the CDU should want to engage with our ideas, just as we engage with theirs. The public responds well to that.

AK I’ve noticed more strategic voting on the left lately. This seems to be a new development.

GG It’s important to look at who has left us and who has stayed. It’s pretty ironic that the CDU set up a ‘firewall’ (refusal to vote or collaborate with parties deemed extremist on the left or right) against us but is now working with Sarah Wagenknecht. [laughs]

AK The Bündnis Sarah Wagenknecht (BSW) has even voted with the AfD against stronger protections for the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitutional Court).

GG Unfortunately, the media barely covered the 2024 vote on whether to better safeguard the Constitutional Court in the event of an AfD-led government. The proposal was to enshrine protections for judges in the constitution, shielding them from political interference. The AfD and BSW voted against it. Everyone else – CDU/CSU, the Greens, Die Linke, and the FDP – voted in favour, obviously. Later, the Union (CDU/CSU) proposed a law to limit immigration (‘Zustrombegrenzung’), which the CDU, FDP, AfD, and BSW supported. Only the SPD, Greens, and Die Linke opposed it. Based on that alone, I find it impossible to support the BSW.

AK What’s your opinion on BSW?

GG The Bündnis Sarah Wagenknecht (BSW) has voted with the AfD against stronger protections for the Bundesverfassungsgericht (Federal Constitutional Court). Unfortunately, the media barely covered the 2024 vote on whether to better safeguard the Constitutional Court in the event of an AfD-led government. The proposal was to enshrine protections for judges in the constitution, shielding them from political interference. The AfD and BSW voted against it. Everyone else – CDU/CSU, the Greens, Die Linke, and the FDP – voted in favour, obviously. Later, the Union (CDU/CSU) proposed a law to limit immigration (‘Zustrombegrenzung’), which the CDU, FDP, AfD, and BSW supported. Only the SPD, Greens, and Die Linke opposed it. Based on that alone, I find it impossible to support the BSW.

AK Can Germany remain stable without Europe?

GG No. We must support the European Union, anything else would be misguided. Germany benefits the most economically from the EU, and we should be honest about that. For Germany, Europe isn’t just an ideological issue; it’s existential. After all, Germany is not a resource-rich country. We have trees, yes, but we need to protect them and use this natural resource sparingly. That’s why Die Linke needs to organise better on a European level than is currently the case. Here in Germany, this has become a lot easier since Wagenknecht declared her alliance a modern conservative party, not a left-wing one. Now she’s competing with the CDU/CSU, FDP, and SPD, rather than with us.

AK What is your position on renewable energies, given Germany’s lack of natural resources?

GG We need to reduce emissions, obviously. But if that kind of policy leads to a price increase – transitioning to renewable energies comes at a cost, after all – then we need to decide who is to bear those costs. I find it unacceptable that only public servants, ministers, and the chancellor are to receive a 3,000 Euro inflation subsidy whereas pensioners get a mere 300 Euros, and the rest of the population gets nothing. Had I been chancellor, I’d never have signed off on a deal that benefits some and leaves others out. If some of us get compensation, all of us should. That would have been a meaningful gesture.

AK Let’s continue with this premise – if you had been elected as chancellor, what are three things you would have wanted to change if you could?

GG First, I’d redecorate the office. You can’t just take it over as your predecessor left it. [laughs] But seriously, I’d work to end the war between Russia and Ukraine as quickly as possible – through a ceasefire, substantive peace talks, and a non-aggression pact with Russia. Second, I’d push for or at least take steps towards a two-state solution in the Middle East. Third, I’d establish fair taxation in Germany, which would also help achieve greater social justice.

AK What does fair taxation mean to you?

GG Well, for example, the G20 have agreed on a billionaire tax. I can’t wait to see if they actually implement it. Initially, Germany vetoed and stopped the proposal, thanks to Finance Minister Lindner. When he stepped aside, they put it back on the agenda, and Chancellor Scholz couldn’t say no. [laughs] So, Germany agreed, but we’ll see if it ever comes into force.

AK And what the actual tax rate would be.

GG Indeed. Middle-class families in Germany face an average tax rate of 42 percent. Billionaire families pay only 25 percent. Why? 

AK Well, why?

GG If you work, you collect wages. Those wages are taxed, and you quickly reach the threshold for the top tax rate, at 42 percent. But if you inherit money and put it into a high-yielding bank account or into shares and bonds, you collect your yield. Those capital gains are only taxed at 25 percent. So, if you receive money in exchange for doing work, you must deduct up to 42 percent (Spitzensteuersatz) or even 45 percent (Höchststeuersatz – maximum tax rate) of your earnings in taxes. If you receive money in exchange for doing nothing, those capital gains are only taxed at a maximum of 25 percent.

AK What would be your solution?

GG In my opinion, we must apply the same tax rate to both capital gains and wages. That money could go towards healthcare and long-term care insurance, which means we could lower health insurance contributions from 17 to 13 percent. That would make a real difference.

AK What else?

GG I’d discuss with state leaders how to improve education. Education is a state matter, but if I were chancellor, I’d push for a constitutional change: let’s turn the ‘cooperation ban’ (Kooperationsverbot) into a ‘cooperation mandate’ (Kooperationsgebot) ensuring that qualifications across Germany are streamlined and carry equal value. In general, we must invest in education and vocational training. Too many young people leave school without qualifications, and too few children of working-class parents achieve the Abitur. The proportion is much higher in France, for example. We should look at other countries to see what they do better than us and what we could learn from them.

AK Why are so many people against fair taxation?

GG Most people simply don’t understand whether a wealth tax would affect them. It’s all about the wealth threshold, which personally I’d set north of one million Euros. Even a modest wealth tax of 0.1 to 1 percent, like the one that’s in place in Switzerland – hardly a country anyone would accuse of being too socialist – could generate an extra 22 billion Euros annually. And the rich haven’t left Switzerland, nor have businesses.

AK That’s the fear opponents often cite.

GG Exactly. We could also adopt a US law requiring citizens living abroad to report their worldwide income annually and to submit their resident country’s tax declaration to the US tax office. If their worldwide earnings exceed a certain personal allowance, they must deduct tax in the US, too. Surely that’s worth considering? Even learning from the US legal system should not be off the table! [laughs]

AK We have touched on the educational system in France, the wealth tax in Switzerland, and US tax law. What else can we learn from other countries?

GG Here’s one thing I find quite exciting: In Belgium, all social benefits – grants for vocational training, scholarships, wages, pensions – are automatically adjusted to keep pace with inflation. People never lose purchasing power, and neither does the economy. It’s fascinating to see what other countries do differently and successfully.

AK Why is Germany’s economy struggling?

GG Debt is a tricky issue. You should never fund ongoing expenses with debt – taxes and fees must cover all that. But it’s worth borrowing money in order to invest in the future. Otherwise, the ‘Schuldenbremse’ (debt brake – a German Basic Law restricting annual structural deficits to 0.35% of GDP) becomes a brake on progress. The next generation can then take on more debt to invest in the future again, and so on. In particular, we need to invest in education, ecological sustainability, and social responsibility.

AK What is your idea of a good country?

GG A country that never makes cuts in any of the following areas: education and training, arts and culture, healthcare, essential services like water, electricity, mobility, communication, food, and science.

AK Arts and culture are often the first to face cuts.

GG But Art and culture are essential for helping people grapple with contradictions and different perspectives. We need books, theatre, film, art, and music. They all matter. That’s why I believe that certain areas should be off the table when it comes to cuts.

AK What would you like to see more of in politics?

GG I’d like to see more transparency and honesty about the reasons behind political decisions. But that’s hard when there’s so much mutual distrust. In a democracy, you can’t always get what you want – we have to compromise and take other peoples’ opinions into consideration. But a compromise shouldn’t mean taking one step in the right direction and one step in the wrong direction. Every step should move us in the right direction, even if those steps may be smaller than we’d like. That’s easier said than done of course, as we can see in the disagreements between SPD, FDP, and the Greens.

AK Is that the biggest challenge for democracy?

GG Politics is not about truth but about majorities. In other words, politicians only tell the truth when they think it’ll give them a majority. If they think the truth won’t help them reach a majority, they’ll try and come up with something else. But people can sense this, which is why an increasing number of them now reject the political establishment. We must think about what we need to change rather than echoing the AfD in an attempt to win over their voters. It’s not working, anyway; all it achieves is to legitimise voting for the AfD. Parties should think about what they’re doing wrong and what makes so many people vote for the AfD.

AK Have you asked yourself that question?

GG Yes. We believe that our mistake was neglecting eastern Germany after reunification. This created a vacuum which the AfD filled. We’ve drawn our own conclusions and are trying to correct that mistake now.

AK If we look at Habeck’s Ten Steps plan (Zehn-Punkte-Plan), Scholz’s Spiegel cover page, and Merz’s proposed migration curb, they all seem to think that ‘the foreigners’ are to blame.

GG This election was all about migration; common sense went out the window. They all think the AfD owes its success to its migration policy, and so suddenly they’re all open to the idea of closing our borders.

AK Do you think that’s a useful policy?

GG No. Stricter border controls lead to an increase in illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants have to work cash in hand since they can’t find legal employment which has a negative impact on wages for those working legally. When people are forced to flee their homes because their lives have become unbearably miserable, they will find a way to make it elsewhere. They always do.

AK They have no other choice.

GG Exactly.

AK What gives you hope?

GG Our party’s growing number of members and the passion they radiate, the culture they create, and the enthusiasm they spread. It shows that there plenty of people in the next generation who think differently. I recently saw a poll according to which 19 percent of young people aged between 18 and 29 vote Die Linke. That means we’re tied frontrunners, along with the Greens who are also at 19 percent. I think at this point we have to start adding, really: Greens plus Die Linke. That’s encouraging even though I know it’s not enough. All the other parties have less, though. The SPD is at only seven percent which I think is really sad. BSW is only at four percent though. [laughs]

AK So, are you going to run for Bundeskanzler again?

GG At this point, elections are basically Make-a-Wish: Mr. Lindner would like to be finance minister again, Ms. Baerbock would like to remain foreign minister, and so Mr. Scholz said, ‘Well, in that case, I’d also like to stay chancellor.’ Mr. Merz pointed out, ‘I’m afraid that’s not possible because I want to be chancellor.’ Mr. Habek interrupted, ‘Hang on a second, I want to be chancellor, too!’ Finally, Ms. Weidel shouted that she should be chancellor. You see, it was a dangerous situation, they were all ready to jump at each other’s throats! I was wondering if I could do anything to deescalate the situation and make them all calm down a bit. Then it came to me: I’ll just do it myself. They were all delighted. Gregor Gysi running for Bundeskanzler was such an absurd, far-fetched proposition, all they could do was laugh.